Hi new and returning visitors!
While we await our book review I thought I would share a great site that explains foot binding and gives some amazing photos. I've also included some other photos I thought would be interesting. Can you imagine doing this?????
Click here for Chinese Foot binding
Here are some other pictures:
click here for Tongkou Village
Chinese women's attire of 19th century
Women cooking
Palanquin (imagine having to carry and walk that for miles on end????)
Click here to see examples of NU SHU writings
So i am really enjoying this story and after having watched the film, they are two separate stories...however, I have to say, what a depressing look into a woman's worth and value. Talk about making your daughter feel like dog doo-doo. I am really looking forward to our discussion! I haven't set a time because I think evenings might be better?????
ReplyDeleteI really love the story so far. It is really interesting and having always loved the history of ancient Chinese and Japanese culture I am enjoying the insight to what it was like in the 19th century. I agree though LB the way they talk about the women and how they are perceived and looked at as worthless is a bit much to take at times. But again I have to remember that this is a different culture and time period that I know for a fact I would not survive lol!
ReplyDeleteSo can't wait to read more!
Oh and yes nights are MUCH better! LOL
Ok! I will post the time for evening! :)
DeleteFinished it! Oh wow. Such a wonderful story full of love and the true meaning of friendship. I cried. Again. I'm looking forward to our discussion as there are so many things to talk about!
ReplyDeleteGreat photo's LB!
ReplyDeleteI keep starting this book and had to put it down for a week. I'm glad to hear it's such a compelling story. I look forward to getting back to it.
THanks OB! I still have more pics to add. If there is something in particular you would like more info on as you read the book let me know and I will post it. :)
ReplyDeleteWill do. Thank U!
DeleteI plan on reading it today.
Owie at that xray photo. If you haven't read Diana Gabaldon's series Outlander, in book three (Voyager), there is talk of foot binding. Ouch!!!
ReplyDeleteI cannot even imagine the pain! Good grief! I have heard of that series, 4string. Too many books and so little time! hahahaha!!! Thanks for popping in. You should stop by more often! :)
DeleteHello Everyone,
ReplyDeleteLB & Jess-What made these characters and story the most relatable?
Hi OB and everyone, new and returning!
DeleteI think what made the women most relatable was the fact that they dealt with situations that are common to us now: in-laws we may or may not like, birth/miscarriages, longing, love, having that special friend to talk to when it's just too much...
How far have you gotten in the story, OB?
Hi LB,
DeleteBeautiful answer to my Q.
As for how far I am in the story: About half way but I had to put the book down for now because of work. I will get back to it soon.
BEfore I can go on talking about any of the characters or other aspects of the story I have to say this: Regardless of the fact that it was "normal" to view women as worthless and treat them as such at the time of our story (and yes I know it goes on today), it was just awful to read the constant berating of the women. My goodness, they even said it about themselves!!!!
ReplyDeleteHere are just some of the greatest demeaning quotes ever:
""Marrying a daughter is just like throwing out water!" p. 78
"A woman will never become valuable if she doesn't leave her village," Mama cried out.
"Goodbye, Mam," I chanted back to her. "Thank you for raising a worthless daughter." p.111
"Mama," Snow Flower chanted one day, "Baba failed to plant me on a sunny hill. I will live in the shade forever."
Her mother sang back, "Truly, it is like planting a beautiful flower on a pile of cow dung." p.129
Grrrr!!!!! Talk about building up some winning self-esteem. :/
I'm going to post questions about the story, so as you read the story, feel free to come back at anytime to comment.
ReplyDeleteDo you think the concept of *old sames* exists today? Do you have an *old same* or are you part of a sworn sisterhood? In what ways are those relationships similar or different from the ones in nineteenth-century China?
Jess said: "Well we have all had best friends from when we were children, and sometimes we are lucky to find one person who stays our friends till we get older. Most friends come and go but the relationship between this person and you is unbreakable. I have someone like that . . . and we could spend years apart but we always come back and it is like we never were apart. That is why I saw SF and Lily as something I have experienced also. However I felt like Snow flower and Lily had more of a in love as a spouse fort of relationship. . . It is just a amazing friendship where both parties love each other and support each other no matter what. Never one sided. Just unconditional love and friendship."
DeleteI agree Jess. I think "old sames" today, for modern day culture, is chosen by the individuals. No one has picked my best friends for me. I have a few "old sames", one from childhood, and several from college. I don't have one specifically, but each woman brings something special to our friendship that meets a need within me. I am able to bring something to her that she needs. I love that with my friends even if we don't talk weekly, monthly, we have an understanding that it has nothing to do with the friendship. We are all busy with our families. We have careers, we have husbands or partners, children, no children, illness, crazy co-workers, crazy neighbors, etc... But we make time for each other and when we talk it as though time has not past.
I do agree with their type of love, but will discuss that in the intimate moment question.
When Lily and Snow Flower are girls, they have one intimate--almost erotic-- moment together. Do you think their relationship was sexual or, given the times, were they simply girls who saw this only as an innocent extension of their friendship?
ReplyDeleteJess,
DeleteI had the same thoughts as you and this is why I think they had these moments (although you said it very well). When we look for a spouse, companion, or partner, we look for someone who meets most, if not all our needs. In 19th Century China the friend met the emotional and spiritual needs and the husband took care of the physical and sexual needs. However, for women (and I'm sure men), to have a satisfying sexual relationship, emotional needs need to be understood and validated. It is natural when you have an emotional connection with someone, you want to physically share more of yourself and sex is one of the closest ways to be together. I think their moment was innocent to them as they did not fully understand what was happening. Yet it was sexual in nature.
I remember when I was dating, I wanted to find a guy who would I could share everything with. I want to be able to do the mundane tasks of the day and then want to jump his bones later on. hahaha! I believe in modern culture we pick to marry someone who meets our emotional, spiritual, mental, and physical needs. Of course we still need our girlfriends, because there are some things men will NEVER be able to understand, no matter how hard they try. And God bless them for it.
Having a wife with bound feet was a status symbol for men, and consequently, having bound feet increased a woman's chances of marriage into a wealthier household. Women took great pride in their feet, which were considered not only beautiful, but also their best and most important feature. As a child, would you have fought against having your feet bound? As a mother, would you have chosen to bind your daughter's feet? And what do you consider a status symbol for men today? Do some women go too far in how they look to get a "man"?
ReplyDelete"And what do you consider a status symbol for men today?"
DeleteDoes the HOOTERS "Dream Girl" competition count? Yeah, I just saw that on TV. Excuse me while I go look for my eyeballs that rolled out of my head...
I'll definitely be back to answer these questions. :)
Although the story takes place in the nineteenth century and seems very far removed from our lives, do you think we're still bound up in other ways, for instance, by career, family obligations, conventions of feminine beauty, or events beyond our control such as war, the economy, and natural disasters?
ReplyDeleteWow I am late. BUT I am here! So I haven't finished the book yet but I am at the end. So almost done. And so far I really like it. the foot binding part was quite hard to read. Very graphic and very disturbing! I think that is a very barbaric act just to look a certain way for a man. However I think our society does that to this day. We may be advanced with our rights as women but are we truly? We suffer pain in heals that are more then 5 in high JUST to look more sexy. Or the amount of makeup we wear. Yes our acts are not so barbaric but they still are along the lines of trying to be sexy or attractive to our opposite sex to make them think we are suitable mates. But I digress because that is a whole different topic.
ReplyDeleteI did have a few well no let me be more frank I had a HUGE problem with some of the Ideas" that these women had of a woman and her "Worth" It was appalling. And for those who know me and am very anti chauvinistic women are only good for one thing attitude! Granted this is the 19th century Communistic China we are reading about. A country that bans a family from having any more daughters after 2 sometimes LESS. So really I can understand. But it was very hard to read at times.
LB you posted some of the quotes that were just harsh about women. Well my "favorite" was this one on page 170 "Lily we ARE worthless" And then page 185 "I wish I could be like you and have three sons. Like you say, Sons are a woman's worth."
those are the ones that stuck out the most with me. Just WOW. So difficult in my 2012 mentality to understand that sort of thinking.
Now I want to answer everybody's questions before I talk more about my opinion of the book.
Ob- What made the characters more relatable? Well we have all had best friends from when we were children, and sometimes we are lucky to find one person who stays our friends till we get older. Most friends come and go but the relationship between this person and you is unbreakable. I have someone like that and yes she is my family member but she is so special to me that love her and she feels the same for me. And we could spend years apart but we always come back and it is like we never were apart. That is why I saw SF and Lily as something I have experienced also. However I felt like Snow flower and Lily had more of a in love as a spouse fort of relationship. But I will get to that.
LB- Do you think the old sames exist today?
Yes. Like I said above I do have one well actually several. It is just a amazing friendship where both parties love each other and support each other no matter what. Never one sided. Just unconditional love and friendship.
Wow I am late. BUT I am here! So I haven't finished the book yet but I am at the end. So almost done. And so far I really like it. the foot binding part was quite hard to read. Very graphic and very disturbing! I think that is a very barbaric act just to look a certain way for a man. However I think our society does that to this day. We may be advanced with our rights as women but are we truly? We suffer pain in heals that are more then 5 in high JUST to look more sexy. Or the amount of makeup we wear. Yes our acts are not so barbaric but they still are along the lines of trying to be sexy or attractive to our opposite sex to make them think we are suitable mates. But I digress because that is a whole different topic.
ReplyDeleteI did have a few well no let me be more frank I had a HUGE problem with some of the Ideas" that these women had of a woman and her "Worth" It was appalling. And for those who know me and am very anti chauvinistic women are only good for one thing attitude! Granted this is the 19th century Communistic China we are reading about. A country that bans a family from having any more daughters after 2 sometimes LESS. So really I can understand. But it was very hard to read at times.
LB you posted some of the quotes that were just harsh about women. Well my "favorite" was this one on page 170 "Lily we ARE worthless" And then page 185 "I wish I could be like you and have three sons. Like you say, Sons are a woman's worth."
those are the ones that stuck out the most with me. Just WOW. So difficult in my 2012 mentality to understand that sort of thinking.
Now I want to answer everybody's questions before I talk more about my opinion of the book.
Ob- What made the characters more relatable? Well we have all had best friends from when we were children, and sometimes we are lucky to find one person who stays our friends till we get older. Most friends come and go but the relationship between this person and you is unbreakable. I have someone like that and yes she is my family member but she is so special to me that love her and she feels the same for me. And we could spend years apart but we always come back and it is like we never were apart. That is why I saw SF and Lily as something I have experienced also. However I felt like Snow flower and Lily had more of a in love as a spouse fort of relationship. But I will get to that.
LB- Do you think the old sames exist today?
Yes. Like I said above I do have one well actually several. It is just a amazing friendship where both parties love each other and support each other no matter what. Never one sided. Just unconditional love and friendship.
LB- Do you think the friendship with Lily and SF was sexual? Yes. I think it wasn't like sexual as in they were attracted to each other like that. BUT I think that it was a emotional love that they never got through men, and since they loved each other and felt SO close they def felt OTHER things as well. Including sexual attraction. Does that make sense? They knew they were safe with each other. Whereas men at that time were horrible to their wives. They treated them so bad. But these girls knew they cold trust each other. That brought out something with them. To me it really contrasted with the book "The color purple" However THAT was a sexual love but it was also emotional. Very similar.
ReplyDeleteLB- As a child would you fight your parents with the foot binding? As a mother would you bind your childs feet?
Yes I would have fought. However I would have grown up in a different time where this is how my society is. It is just natural to them. So I would have grown up seeing my sisters also get it done and def try to NOT get it done. I mean girls die from infection from getting their feet bound that is horrible. As a mother the same as above I would not know any better if I am from a society which accepts this. However I would not want to see my babies in pain so I am not sure. Me NOW would not ever do that to my child.. Me then? I can't really answer.
I already said my concerns with today's standards and what women do to look good for men. Some more outrageous then others but yes we still do these acts today. They may not be like the foot binding but they are pretty close in some cases. And with our country being so hung up on looks today It is funny to see women flinch when looking at the foot binding but yet goes and injects botulism into her face to make her not have wrinkles! Really ma'am? Ok then.
Well I will try my best to finish this like in a day or two. Not promising anything. But so far I really like this book. Reading about the Typhoid attacks was really harsh too. What they had to go through without medical help is so sad.Just makes you realize how lucky we are today.
I found a few more horrible quotes about women when I was reading last night, Page 188 "There is nothing so evil as a woman's heart, 'This was a old saying and probably true.'"
ReplyDeleteReally?? Just wow. You would think that the men would NEVER want to be around women and JUST mate with each other to get children. Ignorance really. I mean without women how would they have those sons?? Irks me!
Not only that but their comments and ideology about women is completely ironic. Not only do these women bind their feet to be accepted into a wealthy, upper class society (hopefully), but they endure miscarriages, still births, marrying men they DON'T know until the day of and even the, goodluck! They deal with wars, sickness, loneliness and isolation from family except for certain times of the year, in-laws that more than likely are still going to treat them like crap, and whatever else we don't know about. I think these women are friggin' unbelievable. And if they do have a hard shell, I don't blame them. They were probably terrified of expressing their true feelings (except to their Lao tongs) and thought that's how they HAD to behave even though they didn't like it themselves...Oh and add abuses to the equation too. And having no rights. These women endured so much and survived. I give them a "Bravo" and a standing ovation for dealing with such atrocities when they had no voice.
DeleteAt least now, we know we can stand up for ourselves, choose who we want to marry, choose what kind of life we would like to live, and be self-reliant. We are very blessed as women in today's society. I realize there are many women in countries who are still living in a backward society, so I pray for those women to stay strong and of courage to endure to the end. I know they will be greatly blessed for it, even if it's not at this time. It will happen.
There. :)
Oh and I give this book a 4.5. What do you think Jess?
DeleteWow! Reading all your responses are wonderful LB & Jess!
ReplyDeleteSome of the quotes from this book are so difficult to read in this format. I don't know why....? I will be honest reading about Communist 19th c. China is not my favorite. I have researched a lot on this period and the research I found on women is quite disheartening. I will go back to reading it soon but thanks LB and Jess for sharing your perspective and analysis of this story.
You are very welcome. I will check back in a few days, so if you have any more questions, Jess and I will be available to answer. :)
DeleteOk I wasn't going to say anything about this but I knowing me and my strong woman feelings on this subject I can't NOT say anything.
ReplyDeleteBefore I start YES I know it is 19th century China. And I know that if I was raised in this time I would not last. But the part that has really irked me was When Snowflower and Lily are talking about bed business. While SF actually enjoys it alot. Lily is almost appalled that she would say such things. She says or implies that women should NOT like bed business that it is only for the man to like.
Well excuse me? Lily can't even understand why SF who (And that part I didn't think was right) has sex right by the fire in front of everyone is making pleasure noises. She literally is baffled by this.
I think THAT part was the hardest for me to read. Because I am so not in that mind set at all. However what is sad is that only until about 50 years ago did we as our country discover that HEY maybe women like having sex too! Or HEY they enjoy it just as much if NOT more! The common misconception is that women did NOT enjoy sex and that for a woman to even like it was wrong and disgusting. Sex is a MAN act. Get bent with that. That sort of thinking is just so hard for me to take. Because even to this day there are some countries who still think this way. But I won't get into that.
And I understand that back then Sex was mainly for having the babies and if the man wanted. But I the thing that was confusing is that if Lily loved her husband like she says and he her. How could she NOT enjoy any bed business? Once your heart is in it and you feel a connection as she mentioned how could she not? We are designed to feel the same way as men so I guess that part just frustrated me.
And made me irked a little. I have to seriously put my heard headed way of thinking out of this when reading. Otherwise I would get super upset all the time lol. And again I understand the time frame of this and understand how it was for them. But it is just so sad and really ignorant that a woman can't even think she can enjoy a sexual act with her own husband. As if it is wrong. That way of thinking is erroneous!
Just blah. Sorry if I got too graphic. Just bugs the crap out of me. Thank goodness I grew up in this time knowing better. Sorry :-)
Jess,
DeleteI'm glad you covered this topic. I agree with what you have said, but am going to play devil's advocate for a minute.
Remember, NO ONE talked to these girls about sex and I doubt anyone talked to the men about what they could do to please their women. Lily was very genuine in her response to SF and would have been shocked to know what it could really be like in bed with her husband.
It's ironic how just even two centuries ago, sexual knowledge was so taboo and now it's a free for all. You can find it anywhere and everywhere. The sacredness of the actual act has been degraded by society. We have watched it seep onto the internet, TV programs that were once wholesome, and more and more movies that are viewed by teens. Even if the act is not shown, the innuendos and full on inappropriate conversations between characters is alarming. I think there is a definite time and place to discuss sex and how one can please their partner, but our society has taken it to a whole other level.
wow, totally went off topic there. hahaha!!! Glad you brought it up though.
I have watched the movie (courtesy of Red Box). I will be discussing my review of the movie and how I felt it compared to the book, tomorrow. Please rent it if you have not seen it yet!!! I want to know your opinion and see how close or how different we are. :)
ReplyDeleteNo I understand that they were never talked to about it. That is not my point. My point was that she thought it was wrong to enjoy. That is ridiculous. Idk just how I feel about it. Yes society is different. But imo I am glad that women and men know about it MORE. To actually think that only a man can enjoy sex gets me so mad I don't even know. I think society though has always had a sick twisted grey area. It was just kept under wraps because there wasn't Internet or Tweets. Just now we have it at our fingertips. If anything I think that is the only change. The sexual behavior and and talk and all that has always been there. We just didn't hear about it all the time like now.
ReplyDeleteI am at a part right now that actually made me depressed and I cried. I feel like Lily was pretty stubborn and really selfish. I think she forgot her roots with all her good fortune and completely shunned Snow Flower for being poor and different. I think she became a snob tbh. I have had friends where we had misunderstandings and yes it ended our friendships. But for Lily to see SF and say all those things to SF and watch her cry and not care as she walked out sobbing? That was what hit the hardest. Poor SF was so hurt by this her old same was saying things that she would NEVER say! And why? Because of a misunderstanding that she should of talked to her at worked it out! Just really don't like Lily at the moment. And now that SF is gone I am glad that those women are telling her what a moron she was for doing that. Especially for that time frame. With death of people being up to the age of 30 and Lily not knowing that they don't have much time to be best friends. Put aside your childish behavior because LIFE IS TOO SHORT. Sorry I am in a mood. LOL
First paragraph: yes, yes, that is very true...Again I think Lily was probably never told that she could enjoy sex and what a shame!!!! And yes, sex talk has always been around, but like you said, it was taboo for public display and conversation.
DeleteSecond paragraph: yes, it really was a shame that they had such a miscommunication between them. I guess it just reiterates that regardless of a relationship with a male or female, communication must be open. ALWAYS!!!! Riches mean nothing. What we take out of this world is the relationships we had with our loved ones and the influence we had on those around us. Everything material will stay on earth and will eventually corrode and fade away.
I think it was a great example of how NOT to treat your friends and the guilt one carries with them if they never have the chance to make ammends.
well I finished it. I give it a 4. I think the end was a little anti climatic. And to be honest after reading what Lily said and did, I sort of lost interest in it. but the book was overall really good except the end. Just a sad story about women in china in the 19th century. How hard and really loveless their lives are. I just would feel so alone and sad all the time. Yes they have the women relationships but to come into a world where women are said to be worthless that existence is just hard to think about. Very sad.
ReplyDelete